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32 year old silicon valley billionaire pays $10000 to have his brain preserved and uploaded to a computer network so he may live forever.
process is 100% fatal.
we serial experiments lain now
>it wouldn't even be you
well, theres a deep philosophical question.
if one could kill their physical body but perfectly replicate your consciousness, is it still not you?
if the copied consciousness were replicated, were all of those still not be you?
kinda like the ship of theseus question.
you are missing the point
same exact philosphical question as the ship of theseus
a new you is created, but in the process the old you is destroyed.
is it a different you or the same you.
i would argue in this case, if they could exactly replicate his mental state and capacity, it is effectively the same person
>literally just killing yourself so you could POSSIBLY have a clone of yourself survive forever
aside from the possibly part that sounds like an ok thing to do, i feel like i deserve to do a nice thing like that for myself. i'm not selfish (or would this be selfish?)
Without a body, what would the rest of his brain do that is usually used for involuntary or voluntary for that matter body functions? Would that greatly affect the personality? Good or bad? I personally like having wiggle worms on the end of my bendy sticks that I can move around
It'd be like being trapped in a sensory deprivation tank forever except worse. You'd probably go insane. Not that it's anything other than an academic issue. Mind uploading is such a pipe dream at this point we're like people from the 15th century looking at da Vinci's flying machine sketches and thinking they'll soon be going to the moon.
>if one could kill their physical body but perfectly replicate your consciousness
That's one of the issues though. Who says they can even partially replicate the consciousness of a living person using electronic bits on a computer system? Scientists haven't even determined exactly how the brain creates our conscious selves, or even if our consciousness manifests only within the brain, so it would be a real leap to claim we are able to truly replicate a person's consciousness.
It isn't, it is at best a personality simulator that appears to respond to questions in a way that a stranger who didn't know you would still be able to tell the difference. Imagine if you took old Tay and fed it your facebook history, would you say that is you because Tay is now mimicking your facebook history? Of course not.
uploading yourself to a computer is the dumbest shit ever.
The closest thing to the notion of uploading a brain would be uploading the connectome, which the name of the company, "Netcome", seems to imply it intends to do.
So far the only complete connectomes are for the roundworm C. elegans, the mouse visual cortex, and bits and pieces of drosophila (fruit fly), aplysia (sea slug), etc. Partial connectomes have been assembled for generic bits of the human visual cortex and parts of the limbic (ie memory) system; the Human Connectome Project exists, but the technology for achieving it is still years or even decades away, like where the Genome Project looked like in the 70s/80s.
A company like this is likely doing a very rough connectome map that basically traces a radiochemical as it winds its way through the circuitry of the brain. The resolution of this connectome is maybe, *at best* (assuming even Netcome has some unpublished engineering breakthrough), by whatever measure, 1/100 of the actual human brain processes. But the commercial marginal cost for this mapping technique would be really cheap -- a few thousand like what they're talking about in this article, sans fixed investment costs (which is why I'd be surprised there wasn't a deposit or investment of several million in the company required beforehand).
By all measure of memories this will store nothing. Nada. Zip. By all measure of consciousness or brain ability, well, even with the full connectome down to the sub-micron we cannot yet simulate even the basic systematic processes of C. elegans, so we are years or even decades away (an "unknown known") from being able to translate the connectome into memories, much less thoughts or sensorimotor responses, or even knowing whether the connectome alone is sufficient to do this for a human.
In conclusion, Netcome is almost certainly selling Snake Oil, at a level of pseudoscience far outstripping the controversies at other consumer biotechs like 23-And-Me, or dubious quantum computers from D-Wave. Worse yet, here the Snake Oil is lethal, and on audit demonstrably will not deliver on its promises (for one thing wouldn't they be claiming the multi-million-dollar reward for cracking the Human Connectome Project about now?).
What we do know is that work in cryonics in the last three years has come to a point where long-term freezing is no longer Snake Oil. A new technique was able to freeze and unfreeze a mouse and then a rabbit brain in, as far as tested, near-perfect cognitive cognition for long-term storage (hours to days to weeks).
So if this guy wants to test the scientific frontiers for human preservation of his brain and memories, he should put himself up to be the first human attempted at being deliberately frozen and then unfrozen.
cles/19877/20160211/cryogenics-enti re-rabbit-brain-successfully-frozen -revived-first-time.htm
It's always the people who most want to live forever who really shouldn't. Does anybody really think an immortal techno-cabal of silicon valley overlords would be a good thing? Anyone fancy King Zuckerberg reigning in perpetuity? I pray that mind uploading is impossible and these people are all forced to return to the dust from whence they came.
check out an old book called angel don't play that HARRP by the inventor of the neurophone, it converts sound directly into brain interpertable electric signals (so a person can hear without ears); implicit is the data could eventually go the other way at least anything actively being thought about. (could brain skimmers tomorrow be like credit card skimmers today?)
re op it's too early, electric signals are lost on death, the physical brain map they might be able to get, then there is data stored in dna, rna, and possibly less understood things.
No, i believe YOU are still missing the point.
if I go unconscious before they kill me and transfer my thoughts perfectly into a 'brain emulator' or whatever, then when it turns on itll still be me 'waking up', presumably i would not think feel or think any differently about anything
nothing will have changed about 'me', only 'me' was transfered from flesh to machine
Ask yourself this. What if they don't kill you? There will be two separate instances of "you." The original, still biological you hooked up to the brain scanner, and the digital copy off in some virtual paradise. The original you will still be stuck with your organic body and will not attain the immortality you sought. You will not share in the experiences of your digital copy, and you will ultimately die a natural death. Now, why would this be any different if they killed you immediately after making the copy?
Each person undergoing this process will die, and remaining people will only interact with a mere copy.
My personal asspull about it is that our consciousness is literally the chaotic electric field produce by the millions of brain synapses firing left and right. So you feel like you're "in your head" because you literally are. Remove that organic chaos and the whole identity evaporates.
Those copies might mimic a human's thoughts, but they won't be or even think they're the originals.
using a computer analogy
again the shape of the brain layout is like the schematic of a motherboard
the electrical activity is like the electrical activity in computer ram
then there is a hard-drive somewhere (dna, rna, other ?)
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Amnesiac drugs like those used during surgery interfere with the transcription of electric signal temp data into more permanent storage, so what these drugs target needs to be studied and reverse engineered so the human "harddrive" can be read.
anothor option for future generations would be to pair an ai with a newborn and have them learn and develop together using tech evolved from the old fashion neurophone to link them into a single entity, then the human/ai hybrid will experience the human part's death as something like a stroke, recover, and continue on
People are fucking brainlets and don't understand this simple concept.
I've had this same conversation with teleportation and you wouldn't believe the amount of imbeciles who are incapable of understanding the idea of a recreated clone of themselves which wouldn't have THEIR consciousness, just an identical indistinguishable copy of it.
what about being copied kills you
so like, if i injected nanobots into your brain, and then over the course of ten years they replaced every neuron of your brain with a synthetic copy, when do you die?
why are you you, if all of your shit is being replaced constantly?
i tend to agree with you that copies of you aren't you, but if the process is slow and you remain "alive" for the whole thing, are you alive or dead?
>what about being copied kills you
Nothing, but people expect that when they die from natural causes >they< will wake up in the clone, which is dumb as fuck.
If after the copy they dispose of your original body, that's what will kill you.
>every neuron of your brain with a synthetic copy, when do you die?
If you replace cells in your brain, it's still your identity. Your tastes or attitude might change if the replacement cells behave too differently from the originals, but that's like "going through a phase". People change sometimes, after all, and there's plenty of accidents causing brain damage that lead to similar stuff. We don't count these as death (for now).
>why are you you,
Already wrote my idea >>239050
This is both a philosophical and biological question. But unfortunately, our current understanding of the brain is too limited to answer any of this.
My guess is, you would gradually become less and less "you" as the nanobots slowly take over. But it would be impossible to define a specific threshold where you transition from being you to not you, just as we can't unanimously agree on when a fetus become a person right now.
I've never heard of the movie but the synopsis sounds interesting
>we serial experiments lain now
Keep in mind, if a major news outlet is openly talking about this, that means the tech has been around for 10-20 years.
Say....roughly around the time The Matrix came out? That movie being what sci-fi comics were for growing anti-gravity/UFO tech in the 40s?
A simulation of you, regardless of how accurate, is not you. Think of all the people who have rebuilt the Titanic in Minecraft, as well as in super advanced physics engines. The original is still there at the bottom of the ocean.
I mean, if we actually had the tech to make it work, I could see doing this as a way to carry on your will, if you were on your deathbed, or if it didn't kill you in the process. Better than gaining "immortality" by writing a novel I suppose. But beyond that...
Also this reeks of fake click-bait news. How would this even be legal? Especially in the US?
>if I go unconscious before they kill me and transfer my thoughts perfectly into a 'brain emulator' or whatever, then when it turns on itll still be me 'waking up', presumably i would not think feel or think any differently about anything
>nothing will have changed about 'me', only 'me' was transfered from flesh to machine
No. It would be a new "you" thinking it just went unconscious and successfully went into the machine but the real (you) died as a part of the process.
Do the same thought experiment but this time you are awake during the process. Can there be two You's at the same time? No. You are either the flesh you or there is a new you which is digital.
You can't have "two" awarenesses and consciousnesses. You are either the new you or the old.
The original died so a new digital one could be created. The digital would probably insist that it was the original you and the process went by without death of the original consciousness because for the digital copy, it probably just felt like going to sleep and waking back up, just not on the operating table but in some strange new digital world.
The original would simply go to sleep, and then die, and its original consciousness with it.
If people want to sacrifice themselves for science, more power to them. We might actually learn some things thanks to their contributions.
I was just saying, they are really putting the cart before the horse. The technology for this doesn't quite exist yet, and the guy in the article is counting on advancements not yet made. They may not be able to achieve the simulation of consciousness they're pursuing.
As some are arguing also, it may not be a contingent consciousness either, you might not 're-awaken" in a new cyber brain, but merely die and have your brain replicated like a digital clone.
Even if it was perfect, if your ass has to die to make the copy, the copy is simply numbers. You're gone and not in that copy. Now, if they could replicate an image of your current brain so that a different machine could "mold it back" to a save point before one's head got bonked on, that'd be cool. But this whole transferring consciousness thing, especially through a machine is so unrealistic. It'd just be data that represents who you were. Even if it evolved, it's still just data and you're not experiencing it. Better off just going to the occult than wasting so much time on something that ultimately wouldn't accomplish anything.
The fetus is a person at its inception. The intent and will of a life is what makes it grow.
As opposed to a living machine that can only compute information?
I mean, he is really gone, but if you could simulate an entire brain and body, cell by cell, and provide sufficient virtual stimulus to stop it from going comatose, it'd process and respond to information the same way you would.
It's still not you though, anymore than any other simulated object is that real world object, regardless of how accurate the simulation.
>As some are arguing also, it may not be a contingent consciousness either, you might not 're-awaken" in a new cyber brain, but merely die and have your brain replicated like a digital clone.
Well, it's either that or soul transmigration actually exists, so you already know the answer.
No, YOU wont be waking up, in fact YOU wont be doing anything since you're dead.
The replicated you only exists for those around you.
They will think its you, but since your existence is being defined by yourself and not the people around, this is effectively pointless.
you add extra processing power and memory to your existing brain
sooner or later you spend more and more time using these outside of brain services or areas
your old brain shrivels up to being useless
have you transferred consciousness?
If this technology was actually feasible I would be terrified of doing it myself. Imagine if something went wrong or someone decided to fuck you over- you could be trapped in an unending cycle of torture for all eternity. Or be trapped in empty space forever with nothing but your consciousness.
Makes me happy that i will be dead.
There was a recent X-files episode (Season 11 episode 2) about this very concept happening.
People considered to have the best and brightest minds volunteered to have their brains downloaded into a secret computer system when they died. It turns out to be similar to "The Matrix" with their minds being used for slave labor.
you are missing the point of the ship of theseus if you think that paradox applies here.
the guy in the op isn't having his brain slowly replaced piece by piece with computer parts while maintaining his consciousness. the guy is letting his brain die, embalming it, and hoping at some point in the future someone uses it as a model to create an entirely new model altogether. there is no single preserved chain of consciousness in this case.
Then this experiment would seem to prove that Consciousness is unable to be transferred to a computer. does this say that Consciousness is not an electronic component of the human mind?
Or at least that the computer is unable to process the human mind. And since when have we possessed this technology to be able to do this sort of transfer anyway? I swear this whole fucking day's been about transhumanism.
Once you've decoded the inner workings of the physics, and expanded your intellect far beyond unaided human capacity, the combinations you can get out of four forces and thirteen particles might get a little stale. It may get to be like Minecraft is to us after awhile - no need to explore when you know all you're going to see is combinations of the same old blocks, over and over again.
But yes, if that becomes a real problem, you can either setup your own virtual world that relies of more complex rules that'll take you longer to get sick of... Or simply delete some of what you know and experience it all anew.
theres a scene in the sixth day, and arnold movie- where a clone of one character murders their own clone. An important aspect of the self is agency for oneself. The new ship does not care about, or doesnt have to care about the old ship.
In this story, funny enough, the clone is killing it's original.
It's a sizable chunk of money for some untested theory that could instead be going towards your grandchildren's education or something else more realistically worthwhile.
How many years in storage does 10k actually get you? It costs me almost 60 a month for a 5x5 and thats without temp control.
the only way this works (as a ship of theseus) is if you gradually replace the organic components of the brain overtime with non-organic/artificial components, such that there's a chain-of-continuity.
replacing everything at once (even if you've got the same memories) isn't a ship-of-Theseus.
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